I always find myself disappointed in live action Batman because I was TAS’s prime target audience.
Every Batman I stumble across (movie, comic, etc) is automatically compared to Kevin Conroy and the animated team. It’s not fair. I understand that. Animated and live action shouldn’t be compared- but mentally I can’t stop it. That IS my Batman. It’s what got me into the toys. And it’s what got me to read my first DC books. (Marvel already took my heart a few years prior).
That being said.. I’m seeing The Batman in approximately 2 hours... so maybe I’ll come back here and delete this rant. ;)
Ok! So by this grading system, Pattinson is technically 1/3. But not a bad thing. As an early story he is literally just Batman. Whole movie. I enjoyed it. It’s a little long, but it was enjoyable IMo. Probably not a movie I’ll rewatch much, but it was a great tale and a very well done Detective Bats story.
Not bad for a year 2 defective at least. Haha. I mean more so the fact that this is the first Bat-movie he actually even really played that role. (IMO)
Oh I don’t want to get into spoilers here, but I loved performance and the take, but I thought he wasn’t good at the mystery-solving part at all. Another character in the movie was a GREAT detective.
This is tough as I'm fairly Bat-nostic and generally hold all Bat-men valid ...🤔. But yeah, probably do have to give it to Bale on showing the full range and all the faces the character.
I did REALLY like the new Bat movie though. Might even be my favorite so far, for what it's worth. Favorite Catwoman portryal by far. I hope you get to see it soon! I'll have to think about where it sits on the Batman personality scale. No spoilers though. 🤐
In my opinion, you nailed it, Kelly. Your post thoughtfully expresses an opinion that I’ve always had but didn’t realize. I love the Bored-Billionaire-Playboy persona and think it’s essential to to the Batman/Bruce Wayne dynamic. It featured in one of my favorite Batman stories (Miller & Mazzuchelli’s Batman: Year One) and in my all-time favorite Batman adaptation (Batman: The Animated Series and the best Batman movie of all-time… Batman: Mask of the Phantasm). Of the actors you listed, I would especially have liked to see Keaton’s take on that third persona. But I think you’re right: that aspect of Batman wasn’t as important to him and Tim Burton. Because I think those elements were in the script, if they decided to play it that way. (When Bruce and Vicki are having dinner and Bruce says he doesn’t think he’s ever been in that room before. When he casually tells Alfred to give Knox a grant, etc.) But, like you said, he played those moments with a benign, absent-minded demeanor. Kind of a missed opportunity, in my mind. But whatevs.
So, yeah. I, too, would give Bale the 3/3 BATMANS award. His bored playboy Bruce Wayne is smarmy, aloof, and kind of unlikeable, which is a brilliant disguise that helps his crusade while causing him pain. Oddly enough, even though I appreciate the Nolan films (more the first two than the third), I don’t find myself wanting to watch them very much. In fact, the only live-action Batman flick I watch semi-regularly is Burton’s first one. (Even though I also LOVE Michele Pfeiffer’s Catwoman, I don’t like the rest of Batman Returns all that much.)
One more thing… I’m currently doing a rewatch of Batman ‘66 and even though Adam West probably only gets 1/3 BATMANS, it’s a delight to revisit!
Thanks! Yeah, those Keaton moments you mention are exactly what I was thinking about -- it's a really interesting choice he (they?) made -- I don't hate it at all, but it does deprive me of that Playboy personal that I crave.
I think this is a spot-on analysis if you view the billionaire playboy persona as a *tactic* and not a byproduct. I think this is maybe why I vibe with Keaton and Pattinson.
I always wanted to see a paparazzi release a photo of Bruce Wayne hugging his parents’ graves from Mask of the Phantasm, because that would definitely trend on socials.
One of the reasons that I didn’t care for the Nolan Batmans was that it felt like Batman-as-Business-Plan and I don’t think that is a very solid business plan (but it is boffo box office).
The answer is Kevin Conroy, 4/3 bats. My evidence is a recent rewatch of the series nearly complete. I will give no further details, but I feel a 14 year old Kelly would agree.
Tim Burton said something about why he cast Keaton that really stuck with me. He said that Batman is this big construction with the suit and the car and everything else. He needs all that to scare people, because he isn't an impressive looking guy. Keaton, Bale, and Pattinson are all great because they 'work the suit' as Keaton calls it. They use the Batman costume for its intended effect.
Clooney, Kilmer, and Affleck are very handsome men. They are used to impressing people. All of them were hampered by the suit to some degree. Clooney, additionally, was emotionally well-adjusted enough to know that he (as a movie star) and Bruce Wayne ( as a billionaire) were super lucky. He thought moping was narcissistic in those circumstances. Nicer to be around, but not Batman.
On the three parts question, you are obviously right. It is what Bob Kane most directly lifted from his influences (Zorro, The Scarlet Pimpernel). The problem is that billionaire dolts behave very differently now than they did at the end of the 19th century. The film-makers are not eager to interrogate that.
That Burton tidbit is great. I like that. But I feel like (and forgive me Keaton for saying you're the only not "very handsome man" here) Bale and Pattinson are ALSO very handsome. Arguably they're going for a different less "traditional" handsome look for Pattison in the new movie (though I can assure you PLENTY of people find that very attractive) but even if you want to call that one officially unattractive, Pattinson has been a literal movie heartthrob in a very "traditionally handsome" way for most of his career. And Bale is defauxzlt very handsome but does tend to transform a lot physically for his roles. But in the case of his Batman/Bruce -- I'd still slot that as "very traditionally handsome."
So I'm not sure where that leaves us regarding the "work the suit" idea (which I very much like).
By the way, I am impressed that you are still quarantined. It almost broke me and I've been out a year.
Pattinson works very hard against his looks (and said something similar to 'work the suit' in one of his interviews). Bale got progressively less uglied up as the Dark Knight trilogy wore on, but he never went as far as Pattinson. He might make a fourth Batman movie just to prove that he can be greasier still.
Admittedly, quarantine is easier for me than a lot of people (I'm naturally reclusive and work from home in a fairly isolating job that doesn't change much -- so long as that job continues to...exist?) Additionally, I have health issues that make me high risk (my partner too) so we have been VERY careful. We have (for the most part) had that luxury. Weird to talk about isolating for two years as a luxury -- but it obviously is. Dark times indeed.
That said, my mental state is not great. Since quarantine I definitely suffer from more frequent waves of depression and my stress/anxiety has been through the roof -- my work has also suffered a lot. I feel like the quality is still there (our editor Charles says The Cull #1 is the best script I've ever written) but it takes me maybe 4 times as long to get there?
From what I've heard of Pattinson/The Batman, it's a very different take on Bruce.
Pattinson is going a very different direction with Bruce. Good, but very different.
Sorry to hear about the health stuff. My immune system is so over-active that it attacks the nerves in my hands and feet. So, my juggling career was over before it started. That said, I rarely get sick. My wife and kids are all healthy, too.
I get really depressed in isolation, like sleep all the time, barely eat, and don’t want to shower depressed. My work (when I am doing it properly) requires travel. Plus, we have an office full of people. My older son (who is brilliant) damn near flunked out of school. Just a brutal year. I am still nowhere close to 100%.
I have trouble even IMAGINING how hard this has been for parents. I have two nephews and I honestly don't know how my brother and his wife haven't completely cracked. Who could have imagined this happening...it's all too bizarre and sad.
On the plus side, kids are fun. My younger son is a film nerd, so we watched about a bunch of super age-inappropriate movies. Getting his reactions is awesome.
On the minus side, they are going through the same mental health challenges that you are and you need to keep it moderately together for them. Someone has to make dinner after all. Plus watching your kid be sad is vastly more painful than being sad yourself.
(I wrote my MA Thesis on Batman comics, so..) I’m sorry to burst your theory wide open, but it’s not 3 prongs, it’s 4.
(Edit: I didn’t realise how much of this is influenced by King, Warrior, Magician, Lover by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette, especially their section on Boy Psychology. Of course that book itself is a derivation of Jung’s ideas of the unconscious archetypes in all of us, so)
1. Billionaire playboy
2. Batman
3. What I call ‘Cave Bruce.’ The Bruce Wayne we see talking to Alfred in the Batcave when he’s not in the suit.
4. The traumatised eight year old child who is ultimately at the heart of whoever this person is.
In a lot of ways, Bruce Wayne stopped developing psychologically at 8 or 12 years old. (Maybe I’m applying Moore and Gillette’s book KING, WARRIOR, MAGICIAN, LOVER too strongly, but whatever) That’s what makes Billionaire Playboy!Bruce interesting to me. That’s exactly what a 12 year old would think an adult is: “if I had a billion dollars, I’d date the prettiest models, buy the coolest cars,” etc. This version enjoys the trappings of wealth and power without any of the responsibilities power and wealth create.
If Dark Avenger of the Innocent is Bruce Wayne conjuring up a tougher, scarier nightmare than the one he lived through, Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne is him trying to be an adult without a consistent adult male example to follow.
BUT WAIT, I hear you scream, WHAT ABOUT ALFRED? And that is an excellent point, and well taken, but if Bruce Wayne runs away from home at 16, then he is separated from Alfred’s influence at a critical period of psychological development. During a person’s teenage years, they begin to develop an identity separate from their parents: they start listening to the music their friends listen to instead of what their parents listen to, for example. This usually culminates in a dramatic act of teenage rebellion. Bruce’s process of becoming a distinct person from his parents was tragically derailed. He, as they say, had to grow up much faster. Which means his dramatic act of teenage rebellion was to run away from home and train in All The Things.
Which brings us nicely to ‘Cave Bruce.’ Cave Bruce is the adult version of the teenager who left. He’s the actual person who went out and learned All The Things. To borrow from Lennon, it’s the “life that happened when he was making other plans.” Playboy Bruce is who he could have grown into if he’d stayed in Gotham and tried to deal with his pain through some kind of self-medication. (I can totally see this version of Bruce being labelled a ‘Gotham City Bad Boy.’ He ABSOLUTELY would throw a hotel room phone at a member of the housekeeping staff.)
‘Cave Bruce,’ on the other hand, is the real, actual person who watched his parents’ murder, made the Vow, ran away from home at 16, learned ALL THE THINGS, and returned home. He is, psychologically, a different person. He’s not the Billionaire Playboy, and he’s not the Dark, Avenging, Monster in the Shadows, and he’s not the traumatised child anymore.
But the traumatised child is really at the heart of all of this. He’s the reason the others exist. Playboy Bruce is the traumatised child’s vision of an adult, Batman is the traumatised child’s vision of a bigger, stronger, scarier monster than the one that inhabits his dreamscape, and Cave Bruce is the traumatised child all grown up.
So, with all of that said, there’s only one portrayal of Bruce Wayne that addresses all four: Christian Bale. He is the best Bruce Wayne.
Haha. Fair enough. I'm not going to argue with a Batman thesis writer! ;D
I can agree that point 4 IS certainly a part of the Batman mythos as a whole, it's obviously foundational. However I'm not sure how I'd want that reconciled in a film. To me a great Bruce that is complicated, tragic, brilliant, and wounded sort of fills both option 3 and 4 for me I think?
When Bale is first gassed by the Scarecrow in BEGINS, he has a vision/nightmare of falling through the cave. He calls Alfred, and there’s a GORGEOUS shot of Alfred driving home WEEPING, listening to the boy he’s basically raised endure ANOTHER traumatic experience, and yet again, Alfred is powerless to help him. The cool part about that is Bruce sees his Dad come to rescue him from the cave and he hears his Dad say his name for the first time since Thomas’ death. (EDIT: Thomas actually says, “Bruce. Why do we fall?”) It’s a beautiful (I’m legitimately teary-eyed) reminder that for all his fierce exterior, Bruce Wayne is still a little boy trapped in the darkness waiting and hoping for his Dad to rescue him.
It’s also why Alfred’s “Why do we fall?” is so important. It’s Alfred reminding Bruce that Thomas may be gone, but he still has a father.
I always find myself disappointed in live action Batman because I was TAS’s prime target audience.
Every Batman I stumble across (movie, comic, etc) is automatically compared to Kevin Conroy and the animated team. It’s not fair. I understand that. Animated and live action shouldn’t be compared- but mentally I can’t stop it. That IS my Batman. It’s what got me into the toys. And it’s what got me to read my first DC books. (Marvel already took my heart a few years prior).
That being said.. I’m seeing The Batman in approximately 2 hours... so maybe I’ll come back here and delete this rant. ;)
TAS was the GOAT.
End of story.
^^^^
THIS
Ok! So by this grading system, Pattinson is technically 1/3. But not a bad thing. As an early story he is literally just Batman. Whole movie. I enjoyed it. It’s a little long, but it was enjoyable IMo. Probably not a movie I’ll rewatch much, but it was a great tale and a very well done Detective Bats story.
Interesting! I didn’t think he was a good detective.
Not bad for a year 2 defective at least. Haha. I mean more so the fact that this is the first Bat-movie he actually even really played that role. (IMO)
Oh I don’t want to get into spoilers here, but I loved performance and the take, but I thought he wasn’t good at the mystery-solving part at all. Another character in the movie was a GREAT detective.
This is tough as I'm fairly Bat-nostic and generally hold all Bat-men valid ...🤔. But yeah, probably do have to give it to Bale on showing the full range and all the faces the character.
I did REALLY like the new Bat movie though. Might even be my favorite so far, for what it's worth. Favorite Catwoman portryal by far. I hope you get to see it soon! I'll have to think about where it sits on the Batman personality scale. No spoilers though. 🤐
Heheheh *bat-nostic*
In my opinion, you nailed it, Kelly. Your post thoughtfully expresses an opinion that I’ve always had but didn’t realize. I love the Bored-Billionaire-Playboy persona and think it’s essential to to the Batman/Bruce Wayne dynamic. It featured in one of my favorite Batman stories (Miller & Mazzuchelli’s Batman: Year One) and in my all-time favorite Batman adaptation (Batman: The Animated Series and the best Batman movie of all-time… Batman: Mask of the Phantasm). Of the actors you listed, I would especially have liked to see Keaton’s take on that third persona. But I think you’re right: that aspect of Batman wasn’t as important to him and Tim Burton. Because I think those elements were in the script, if they decided to play it that way. (When Bruce and Vicki are having dinner and Bruce says he doesn’t think he’s ever been in that room before. When he casually tells Alfred to give Knox a grant, etc.) But, like you said, he played those moments with a benign, absent-minded demeanor. Kind of a missed opportunity, in my mind. But whatevs.
So, yeah. I, too, would give Bale the 3/3 BATMANS award. His bored playboy Bruce Wayne is smarmy, aloof, and kind of unlikeable, which is a brilliant disguise that helps his crusade while causing him pain. Oddly enough, even though I appreciate the Nolan films (more the first two than the third), I don’t find myself wanting to watch them very much. In fact, the only live-action Batman flick I watch semi-regularly is Burton’s first one. (Even though I also LOVE Michele Pfeiffer’s Catwoman, I don’t like the rest of Batman Returns all that much.)
One more thing… I’m currently doing a rewatch of Batman ‘66 and even though Adam West probably only gets 1/3 BATMANS, it’s a delight to revisit!
Thanks! Yeah, those Keaton moments you mention are exactly what I was thinking about -- it's a really interesting choice he (they?) made -- I don't hate it at all, but it does deprive me of that Playboy personal that I crave.
I honestly agree with you on this, Bale has done the best job as Bruce+Batman
I think this is a spot-on analysis if you view the billionaire playboy persona as a *tactic* and not a byproduct. I think this is maybe why I vibe with Keaton and Pattinson.
I always wanted to see a paparazzi release a photo of Bruce Wayne hugging his parents’ graves from Mask of the Phantasm, because that would definitely trend on socials.
One of the reasons that I didn’t care for the Nolan Batmans was that it felt like Batman-as-Business-Plan and I don’t think that is a very solid business plan (but it is boffo box office).
Great analysis, but I thought it was Bale immediately. Oh yeah, don't forget Adam West.
The answer is Kevin Conroy, 4/3 bats. My evidence is a recent rewatch of the series nearly complete. I will give no further details, but I feel a 14 year old Kelly would agree.
Look, it's all a bit technical, but the important thing is your analysis is absolutely correct.
haha!
Tim Burton said something about why he cast Keaton that really stuck with me. He said that Batman is this big construction with the suit and the car and everything else. He needs all that to scare people, because he isn't an impressive looking guy. Keaton, Bale, and Pattinson are all great because they 'work the suit' as Keaton calls it. They use the Batman costume for its intended effect.
Clooney, Kilmer, and Affleck are very handsome men. They are used to impressing people. All of them were hampered by the suit to some degree. Clooney, additionally, was emotionally well-adjusted enough to know that he (as a movie star) and Bruce Wayne ( as a billionaire) were super lucky. He thought moping was narcissistic in those circumstances. Nicer to be around, but not Batman.
On the three parts question, you are obviously right. It is what Bob Kane most directly lifted from his influences (Zorro, The Scarlet Pimpernel). The problem is that billionaire dolts behave very differently now than they did at the end of the 19th century. The film-makers are not eager to interrogate that.
That Burton tidbit is great. I like that. But I feel like (and forgive me Keaton for saying you're the only not "very handsome man" here) Bale and Pattinson are ALSO very handsome. Arguably they're going for a different less "traditional" handsome look for Pattison in the new movie (though I can assure you PLENTY of people find that very attractive) but even if you want to call that one officially unattractive, Pattinson has been a literal movie heartthrob in a very "traditionally handsome" way for most of his career. And Bale is defauxzlt very handsome but does tend to transform a lot physically for his roles. But in the case of his Batman/Bruce -- I'd still slot that as "very traditionally handsome."
So I'm not sure where that leaves us regarding the "work the suit" idea (which I very much like).
By the way, I am impressed that you are still quarantined. It almost broke me and I've been out a year.
Pattinson works very hard against his looks (and said something similar to 'work the suit' in one of his interviews). Bale got progressively less uglied up as the Dark Knight trilogy wore on, but he never went as far as Pattinson. He might make a fourth Batman movie just to prove that he can be greasier still.
Admittedly, quarantine is easier for me than a lot of people (I'm naturally reclusive and work from home in a fairly isolating job that doesn't change much -- so long as that job continues to...exist?) Additionally, I have health issues that make me high risk (my partner too) so we have been VERY careful. We have (for the most part) had that luxury. Weird to talk about isolating for two years as a luxury -- but it obviously is. Dark times indeed.
That said, my mental state is not great. Since quarantine I definitely suffer from more frequent waves of depression and my stress/anxiety has been through the roof -- my work has also suffered a lot. I feel like the quality is still there (our editor Charles says The Cull #1 is the best script I've ever written) but it takes me maybe 4 times as long to get there?
From what I've heard of Pattinson/The Batman, it's a very different take on Bruce.
Pattinson is going a very different direction with Bruce. Good, but very different.
Sorry to hear about the health stuff. My immune system is so over-active that it attacks the nerves in my hands and feet. So, my juggling career was over before it started. That said, I rarely get sick. My wife and kids are all healthy, too.
I get really depressed in isolation, like sleep all the time, barely eat, and don’t want to shower depressed. My work (when I am doing it properly) requires travel. Plus, we have an office full of people. My older son (who is brilliant) damn near flunked out of school. Just a brutal year. I am still nowhere close to 100%.
I have trouble even IMAGINING how hard this has been for parents. I have two nephews and I honestly don't know how my brother and his wife haven't completely cracked. Who could have imagined this happening...it's all too bizarre and sad.
On the plus side, kids are fun. My younger son is a film nerd, so we watched about a bunch of super age-inappropriate movies. Getting his reactions is awesome.
On the minus side, they are going through the same mental health challenges that you are and you need to keep it moderately together for them. Someone has to make dinner after all. Plus watching your kid be sad is vastly more painful than being sad yourself.
(I wrote my MA Thesis on Batman comics, so..) I’m sorry to burst your theory wide open, but it’s not 3 prongs, it’s 4.
(Edit: I didn’t realise how much of this is influenced by King, Warrior, Magician, Lover by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette, especially their section on Boy Psychology. Of course that book itself is a derivation of Jung’s ideas of the unconscious archetypes in all of us, so)
1. Billionaire playboy
2. Batman
3. What I call ‘Cave Bruce.’ The Bruce Wayne we see talking to Alfred in the Batcave when he’s not in the suit.
4. The traumatised eight year old child who is ultimately at the heart of whoever this person is.
In a lot of ways, Bruce Wayne stopped developing psychologically at 8 or 12 years old. (Maybe I’m applying Moore and Gillette’s book KING, WARRIOR, MAGICIAN, LOVER too strongly, but whatever) That’s what makes Billionaire Playboy!Bruce interesting to me. That’s exactly what a 12 year old would think an adult is: “if I had a billion dollars, I’d date the prettiest models, buy the coolest cars,” etc. This version enjoys the trappings of wealth and power without any of the responsibilities power and wealth create.
If Dark Avenger of the Innocent is Bruce Wayne conjuring up a tougher, scarier nightmare than the one he lived through, Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne is him trying to be an adult without a consistent adult male example to follow.
BUT WAIT, I hear you scream, WHAT ABOUT ALFRED? And that is an excellent point, and well taken, but if Bruce Wayne runs away from home at 16, then he is separated from Alfred’s influence at a critical period of psychological development. During a person’s teenage years, they begin to develop an identity separate from their parents: they start listening to the music their friends listen to instead of what their parents listen to, for example. This usually culminates in a dramatic act of teenage rebellion. Bruce’s process of becoming a distinct person from his parents was tragically derailed. He, as they say, had to grow up much faster. Which means his dramatic act of teenage rebellion was to run away from home and train in All The Things.
Which brings us nicely to ‘Cave Bruce.’ Cave Bruce is the adult version of the teenager who left. He’s the actual person who went out and learned All The Things. To borrow from Lennon, it’s the “life that happened when he was making other plans.” Playboy Bruce is who he could have grown into if he’d stayed in Gotham and tried to deal with his pain through some kind of self-medication. (I can totally see this version of Bruce being labelled a ‘Gotham City Bad Boy.’ He ABSOLUTELY would throw a hotel room phone at a member of the housekeeping staff.)
‘Cave Bruce,’ on the other hand, is the real, actual person who watched his parents’ murder, made the Vow, ran away from home at 16, learned ALL THE THINGS, and returned home. He is, psychologically, a different person. He’s not the Billionaire Playboy, and he’s not the Dark, Avenging, Monster in the Shadows, and he’s not the traumatised child anymore.
But the traumatised child is really at the heart of all of this. He’s the reason the others exist. Playboy Bruce is the traumatised child’s vision of an adult, Batman is the traumatised child’s vision of a bigger, stronger, scarier monster than the one that inhabits his dreamscape, and Cave Bruce is the traumatised child all grown up.
So, with all of that said, there’s only one portrayal of Bruce Wayne that addresses all four: Christian Bale. He is the best Bruce Wayne.
Haha. Fair enough. I'm not going to argue with a Batman thesis writer! ;D
I can agree that point 4 IS certainly a part of the Batman mythos as a whole, it's obviously foundational. However I'm not sure how I'd want that reconciled in a film. To me a great Bruce that is complicated, tragic, brilliant, and wounded sort of fills both option 3 and 4 for me I think?
When Bale is first gassed by the Scarecrow in BEGINS, he has a vision/nightmare of falling through the cave. He calls Alfred, and there’s a GORGEOUS shot of Alfred driving home WEEPING, listening to the boy he’s basically raised endure ANOTHER traumatic experience, and yet again, Alfred is powerless to help him. The cool part about that is Bruce sees his Dad come to rescue him from the cave and he hears his Dad say his name for the first time since Thomas’ death. (EDIT: Thomas actually says, “Bruce. Why do we fall?”) It’s a beautiful (I’m legitimately teary-eyed) reminder that for all his fierce exterior, Bruce Wayne is still a little boy trapped in the darkness waiting and hoping for his Dad to rescue him.
It’s also why Alfred’s “Why do we fall?” is so important. It’s Alfred reminding Bruce that Thomas may be gone, but he still has a father.
That does it for me.
Although it does make you wonder where Alfred was the night Thomas and Martha were killed…